Comments on: Big billables, bigger salaries: Are junior lawyers paying the price for their principles? https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/ Legal news, insider insight and careers advice Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:38:14 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.2 By: Heretic https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1204394 Wed, 18 Dec 2024 16:38:14 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1204394 Haven’t read the article, but wanted to comment as a senior associate that I agree with Leopard’s comment above in its entirety.

In short, the money you get as an associate is good for a few years; your exits usually involve in-house or partnership at a smaller (non-US/MC) firm, where you will earn less. Certain in-house roles pay well, but come with issues. Partnership at mid markets or small city firms usually involves peanuts as salaried / fixed share partner (i.e. senior associate with a title) for 3-7 years, and then being bottom of the equity. The points system is so obscure, and most associates have no idea how awful and political it is. Sometimes points are given for the time served at the firm, work won, team billables and who can suck up best to any relevant committee. The money isn’t that great for most of equity – most equity partners earn much less than the PEP figures, it’s distorted upwards wildly by a select few.

Also divorce in yours 40s/50s/60s a real killer on net wealth, and it does happen frequently. If you want to see a worked example including all financials, this is a good one re the litigation head of a MC firm (i.e. not just a normal or fresh partner, head of whole team):

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2020/466.html

]]>
By: Anon https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1204387 Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:31:07 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1204387 In reply to Leopard.

This is totally incorrect – yes, some firms have “salary bunching” on their pay scales to a greater or lesser extent, but the salary scales themselves have been moving up at a rate of knots in recent years – so when you are (e.g.) 3 years more PQE than you are now, you’re not going to be paid whatever the rack rate is now, you’re getting whatever it is in three years’ time.

When I was an NQ (MC) I earned £77.5k – NQs today (less than 10 years later) are now essentially double that (plus better bonuses) – and I don’t have the figure to hand for what my current PQE rate would have been paid when I qualified but I can guarantee it was also significantly lower than what I get now.

]]>
By: Curious https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203703 Fri, 06 Dec 2024 16:05:40 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203703 In reply to 5 PQE.

What kind of careers were these MC NQs leaving to?

]]>
By: Kirkland not qualified https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203612 Thu, 05 Dec 2024 07:22:03 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203612 Easy to say for a man who either had no student loans, or had them on the very old plan of 3K a year.

Easy to say for a man who bought when house prices were at normal rates rather than the insane prices they are now at.

]]>
By: Leopard https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203582 Wed, 04 Dec 2024 14:59:37 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203582 In reply to Non.

That’s not the point (and also not really true: 99% of associates won’t ever be partners and with bunching these days salaries don’t go up a huge amount before partnership, and it now takes 12-15 years to get to equity vs the 7 years it took in the author’s day).

The point is he is calling these salaries “absurd” and patronising young associates by telling them they shouldn’t lose sight of their morals and dignity when accepting these great mountains of wealth.

And he’s saying that while sitting on a mountain of wealth that is literally 100s of times bigger and was built out of the blood, sweat and tears of young associates over his decades as a partner.

]]>
By: Non https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203575 Wed, 04 Dec 2024 10:58:57 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203575 In reply to Leopard.

Right… you are slightly flawed here in that there exists a wonderful phenomenon called salary progression, meaning a worker is not forever paid only the salary on which they start, and nothing more.

I presume the vast proportion of the author’s fortune was made as a partner, rather than as an associate

]]>
By: Leopard https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203574 Wed, 04 Dec 2024 10:25:53 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203574 In reply to MC Ass.

What is especially annoying about this author is he will be living in a £4-5m mansion and have millions of pounds in investments, fly business class everywhere and have 5-10 holidays per year staying in Aman and Four Seasons hotels.

An associate on £150k, starting life with £60k of student debt and paying £1k/month to live in a student flat in zone 4, will only be able to save maybe £40k/year after tax and basic expenses, and that’s living like a Franciscan monk.

Yea that’s £40k more than the average person, but it will still take them 100 years working like that to be able to buy the author’s £5m mansion. And the associate will have to give almost every minute of their life to their paymasters for the privilege of that £40k.

]]>
By: whoamibutJustanotherlawyer https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203561 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 23:57:55 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203561 “…the real ball; that is the production of high quality work, total integrity and the best interests of the client, which always have to be the critical driver of a lawyer’s endeavours.”

Important section to highlight. All firms will do well to remember this and a solicitor’s ethics. Prioritise clients interests and stop making it all about targets and billables!

]]>
By: 5 PQE https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203559 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 22:03:51 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203559 In reply to Boom.

Agreed. I was naïvely surprised at the magic circle firm which I was a trainee by the number of people who simply wished to do their training contract, do two years, and then leave. It was seen very much as a CV-filling exercise.

One other alternative is to do something exciting in your early 20s, and then change career into law after that. The most obvious example is a commission in the armed forces.

]]>
By: 5 PQE https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203558 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 22:01:52 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203558 In reply to MC Ass.

I was at a Magic Circle firm as a trainee, then a US firm. We used 6-min increments at both. The latter paid us [far] more because we did more work, we acted for claimants (who actually chose to litigate), and the partners didn’t waste money on boondoggles and support staff. Most of the antipathy to US firms appears to be jealously and/or snobbery.

]]>
By: Boom https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203531 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 13:57:40 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203531 Take the money, the reputational enhancement, the training, do a few years, get out.

It’s not as though smaller or regional firms – with shitty salaries – are benevolent employers with caring CPD programmes, have time to train associates, and don’t bleed their associates dry. They are just poorly paid alternatives that will always be there for people who start at the top.

]]>
By: Anonymous https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203525 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 11:35:25 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203525 In reply to Curious George.

Jones Day were dinged by the High Court this year for using 15 minute segments for litigation matters. Still not as bad as certain other professions I’m aware of, which bill “per hour or part thereof” and somehow get away with it…

]]>
By: Wigmore https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203524 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 11:22:05 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203524 “In the April article referred to above, a RollOnFriday survey was reported to show that a substantial number of young lawyers “pad” their time recording, with a number admitting to inventing hours worked which in fact had not been worked. ”

…Fraud, in other words.

]]>
By: Benefitthenblame https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203523 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 10:45:28 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203523 Ok for the author who has earned a MC Partner salary/drawings for a number of years to retire and then criticise the system that they directly supported and benefitted from. Such hypocrisy and generally reeks.

]]>
By: Jim https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203520 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203520 In reply to Curious George.

1 unit = 15 minutes rather than the standard 6 minutes

]]>
By: Curious George https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203517 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 10:08:21 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203517 In reply to MC Ass.

Agreed. It’s insane to hear about associates (particularly at US firms) billing c. 3k hours a year. Like yes of course they are busy but surely there has to be a paddin’ to those figures. Also, what is the 15 minute segment you speak of?

]]>
By: MC Ass https://www.legalcheek.com/2024/12/big-billables-bigger-salaries-are-junior-lawyers-paying-the-price-for-their-principles/#comment-1203515 Tue, 03 Dec 2024 09:39:04 +0000 https://www.legalcheek.com/?p=212554#comment-1203515 I have no doubt that time padding is absolutely rife in the city, but it’s basically impossible to catch. The US firms pretty much systemically pad their time, with several using 15 minute segments to make it easy. Their clients don’t seem to care, and it’s not as if the SRA is able or willing to do anything about it. It doesn’t help that the nature of the work is such that a four hour block of time with the narrative “preparing SPA” could be completely legitimate or completely fictitious.

The problem is that it’s easy for a former MC partner to make the suggestion to go with your principles, but the UK is in a complete mess after the last 15 years. Young people simply cannot buy a house anywhere that isn’t a shithole without BOMAD and/or a seriously good salary.

The best the country is going to do for the foreseeable future is to limp along, before inevitably people vote for some lunatic far right government in a few years time and crash us even further into corruption, decay and unrest. The only protection against the consequences of that is to have lots of money and a good job.

]]>